i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.
i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.
i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.
OLI-In any case, I'm not God, nor do I claim to understand everything completely.
How is it that when there is something negative about god in the bible, believers don't claim to understand everything...
But they never question the positive portions about god but take them at face value?
Only slightly one sided...?
i'm wondering why believers remain members of this forum which is clearly hostile to believers.
as one member said, nonbelievers pounce on any semblance of belief like piranhas on prey.
as former jws we should have had our fill of judgmental know-it-alls, but here we are.
2+2=5
Could you imagine my thoughts? You would be shocked and traumatised if you could read my wicked atheist mind and get just a glimpse of my mentality. You may also become sexually aroused.
Oh behave!
i'm wondering why believers remain members of this forum which is clearly hostile to believers.
as one member said, nonbelievers pounce on any semblance of belief like piranhas on prey.
as former jws we should have had our fill of judgmental know-it-alls, but here we are.
Simon
It's funny how the righteous are now so worried about their right to free-speech ... after hundreds of years of butchering anyone who dared question the existence of their god.
I know. My favourite is when you point out their intolerance towards homosexuals and their response is that by doing so, you are inhibiting their religious freedom and right to believe.
i'm wondering why believers remain members of this forum which is clearly hostile to believers.
as one member said, nonbelievers pounce on any semblance of belief like piranhas on prey.
as former jws we should have had our fill of judgmental know-it-alls, but here we are.
Believer-"Yes, I understand that. But remember, believers were also muted by the same dogmatic believers. So a forum such as this is also the believer’s opportunity to regain their freedom of speech.They don’t want to lose it again either."
I agree fully. But just to point out that some, and I would guess most unbelievers, want to hear your points of view and have no desire to inhibit any freedom of speech.
Believer-"Surely there can be some respect for that so that every time the words “faith” or “spiritual” or “God” are brought up, the believer is not chastised or ridiculed for it."
I appreciate your wishes but it's just never going to happen in reality when you have a clash of such opposing perspectives. Maybe this is the price of freedom of speech?
People's frustrations will almost inevitably result in ridicule. Both sides are guilty, as were you yourself with one of your posts to me. But just to say that not all challenging questions are meant to be hostile.
If you take a look at Cofty's series of threads about evolution, there are a lot of spiteful and ridiculing comments that come from believers. He just gets on with it. It's going to happen.
Believer-"They should be just a free to say ‘I believe in God’ without have to prove why to those who really don’t care why."
But if we apply that as a rule, doesn't that inhibit unbelievers right to free speech? Isn't that what the JWs promote?
No one is forcing you to reply to their posts. You don't have to engage unbelievers. So you are free to say what you believe in and you don't have to prove nothing to anyone.
If you don't wish for your beliefs to be challenged then there are other sites that only let Christians post on them. But as far as I am aware, this is an open discussion forum, so it's going to happen.
i'm wondering why believers remain members of this forum which is clearly hostile to believers.
as one member said, nonbelievers pounce on any semblance of belief like piranhas on prey.
as former jws we should have had our fill of judgmental know-it-alls, but here we are.
Believer
It might help if you try to understand things from the unbelievers perspective.
Some of us had our questions when we were JWs but were never allowed to ask them.
When we left we found our voice which had been forcefully muted by dogmatic believers. Some of us paid a high price for our freedom of speech and we are not about to lose it again.
To finally be able to ask the 'difficult questions' is the manifestation of our liberation from a cult-like religion.
So before you pigion-hole everyone who wishes to question your faith as 'aggressive', maybe come at it from the angle that they are just liberated people who can now exercise their right to question.
If you view things that way it might not feel quite as hostile.
so last thursday was meeting day.
my wife knows my thoughts on this religion and respects my fade and is completely ok with it (which surprised me, and also made me love her even more).
i think she must know it's all crack-pot stuff but seeing as her whole family are all in and about 98% of them cant even explain their beleifs without a watchtower on hand i think she's just going along for the friends/family/social side of it.
sister gagging-for-it-but-pretending-that-she-isnt
LOL! So funny... and so many...
i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.
i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.
i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.
Believer
"This 6th sense is how we perceive spiritual things. The 5 senses are objective and can be authenticated in a way that others readily accept, i.e., they can taste, touch, see, hear, smell it too. But the 6th sense is subjective. It is a personal understanding or epiphany or revelation."
The 5 primary senses are all of them fallible and can easily deceive the mind. The '6th sense', however, is notoriously inaccurate and misleading. How can you distinguish, with any certainty, the difference between a supposed revelation, from a very convincing psychotic delusion, when the conviction for both is the same?
Believer
"One person cannot prove their personal spiritual revelations to another. He may be able to articulate it, but authenticating it can only occur if the other person is also able to perceive it through their 6th sense. But a spiritual revelation is just as real to a person who uses that sense as are the things perceived with the animal senses"
So if someone has an experience that feels real to them, does it prove that it is real?
Believer
" if Satan wrote the bible, that would be proof that God and other supernatural beings exist. Right?"
Not at all. That's an assumption based on the 6th sense. What's stopping Satan from inventing fictitious characters for his story book, like George Lucas inventing Darth Vader?
i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.
i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.
i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.
Believer
"Now, the questions you ask are questions that would be posed by a mind that cannot really know anything. So flighty and philosophical."
My questions were asked purely from a practical, easy to understand perspective.
If you think they are in any way "philosophical" you might not have read them carefully enough.
Believer
"It is hard to have a conversation with a mind that thinks like the wind. But let’s do this another day, when you have real questions that can spark an intelligent conversation."
Maybe i have given you too many questions at once. So I'll just ask one, simple question.
If "we don't have the capacity to experience spiritual things through our senses...", as you said in your earlier post, how can anyone know if a supernatural experience is authentic?
i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.
i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.
i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.
Believer
We may know now which men, but I think its pretty clear and widely accepted that it was written by men. I’ve never heard a valid argument that supports a conclusion that it was written by Satan.
My point wasn't to do with who wrote the bible. It's mainly attributed to being inspired of god, so effectivly he wrote it.
My point followed on from your comment where you said that "we don't have the capacity to experience spiritual things through our senses..."
So even if an angel appeared to you, how would you know it was not some spiritual hoax by some other being acting as an angel?
If Jesus materialised right in front of you, how would or could you know that it wasn't actually Zeus playing a game?
My point is, if you have no way to perceive the spiritual relm, as you rightly say, how can you know if any supernatural experience is authentic?
And if Satan wrote the bible, how do you know that he hasn't tricked everyone into thinking otherwise? What valid argument could prove or disprove such a claim?
i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.
i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.
i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.
And since we don’t have the capacity to experience spiritual things through our senses, who knows what other spiritual things there might be.
Good point.
So how do we know the bible isn't a hoax written by Satan? How could you know for sure?
